Tuesday, April 15, 2014

FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES.

John Hinderaker further explains his support for the Bundy Ranch.
Some have claimed that Harry Reid is behind the BLM’s war against Cliven Bundy, on the theory that he wants the land for a solar project in which his son Rory is involved, along with the Chinese. I don’t believe this is correct. The solar projects are located north of Las Vegas, 30 miles or so from the area where Bundy ranches.
But the connection is nevertheless important in two respects.
Stop to take that in for a moment: Hinderaker says the militiamen's argument is insupportable, but now Hinderaker is going to tell you why the argument nonetheless remains relevant.

First, he says, the government's favored tortoise-protection area is where Bundy wants to graze without paying; "So it is possible that the federal government is driving Bundy off federal lands to make way for mitigation activities that enable the solar energy development to the north. But I don’t think it is necessary to go there." ("Don’t think it is necessary to go there," by the way, is Lawyerly for "I withdraw the question, I just wanted to smear the witness within the hearing of the jury.")

"The second and more important point," per Hinderaker:
...it is obvious that some activities are favored by the Obama administration’s BLM, and others are disfavored. The favored developments include solar and wind projects. No surprise there: the developers of such projects are invariably major Democratic Party donors. Wind and solar energy survive only by virtue of federal subsidies, so influencing people like Barack Obama and Harry Reid is fundamental to the developers’ business plans. Ranchers, on the other hand, ask nothing from the federal government other than the continuation of their historic rights. It is a safe bet that Cliven Bundy is not an Obama or Reid contributor.
So though there's no proof that Obama and Reid illegally rigged it so Bundy would lose his access to the government land, the fact that something happened that Obama and Reid would like is proof of... well, that something happened that Cliven Bundy and John Hinderaker don't like.

The remainder is just old-fashioned ressentiment: "And their way of life is one that, frankly, is on the outs. They don’t develop apps. They don’t ask for food stamps... They aren’t illegal immigrants," etc. In the end, this argument isn't based on the law -- nor even, oddly, on the legitimate idea that the law should be changed -- but on the notion that if some rightwing sovereign-citizen nut dressed as Ronald Reagan feels bad about something, that proves America has gone all to hell.

I'm surprised that allegedly respectable writers (Time's Blog of the Year back in 1964) are embarrassing themselves this way. Maybe they think they'd better be nice to the nuts because they're all they have left.

UPDATE. Comments have gotten pretty good, with one fellow coming in to lay some Hard Truth on everybody -- apparently it's really all about water rights, which Bundy himself hasn't asserted (he's more voluble about not recognizing the authority of the U.S. government). As you might expect, the fellow winds up yelling about Al Sharpton and telling other commenters to "get on yer knees and do what ya do best." These guys really don't like being laughed at.

101 comments:

  1. coozledad12:20 PM

    "And their way of life is one that, frankly, is on the outs. They don’t develop apps. They believe in blood atonement They listen to voices in their heads named Jabbahamalakka Lakka and Roo or some such shit that tell them to kill their wives, and their wives listen to voices in their heads that tell them the time for an abortion is around ten months. They don't shrink from using women as bullet sponges, and they've taken a blood oath to destroy the US at the first opportunity. In short, they're ideal Republicans. We, as former warbloggers, need to lick their dusty scrod."

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  2. Chairman Pao12:31 PM

    'Ranchers, on the other hand, ask nothing from the federal government other than the continuation of their historic rights.'



    No irony was harmed in the making of this sentence.

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  3. RogerAiles12:32 PM

    Who needs to ask for food stamps when you can steal your gub'mint cud for free?


    Cliven is the Welfare Queen of the Prairie.

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  4. MBouffant12:33 PM

    From Hindrocket's "About":

    He has been named one of the top commercial litigators and one of the 100 best lawyers in Minnesota, and has been voted by his peers one of the most respected lawyers in that state. He is listed in The Best Lawyers in America and was recognized as Minnesota’s Super Lawyer of the Year for 2005.

    How can he be a such complete ninny yet be (GACK!) Minnesota’s Super Lawyer of the Year for 2005?

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  5. MBouffant12:35 PM

    Hey, he has as much of a historic right to land that isn't his as the next sovereign citizen.

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  6. MrRedNeckParadise12:40 PM

    Just bear with me for a moment...

    It isn't just Harry Reid's corruption in play, here. (The evidence and proof is readily available, but Hinderaker conveniently ignores it.) There is a larger context to consider. Left and right, Pubbie or Dem, local, state and federal, most of our elected officials do this sort of thing. He's just the most egregious example, at the moment. They enact laws that benefit themselves, their families and cronies. They also do a lot of insider trading, trading their portfolios on the laws they're going to enact before they enact them. iow, they've rigged the markets. If you know that your new law will screw the competitor of the company in your own portfolio, you'll want to place a 'bet' on the stack, shorting the market. ...or sell your portfolio, before a new law screws you, in turn. Then, you can also place 'bets' on the company that will make a killing because of your new law.

    Then, we get into the 'pay to play' schemes and 'pay for access' schemes, which earns them a bit more money. Then, to top it off, there are campaign 'contributions' and 'favors' that they all trade in, meaning that it usually makes them even more money. Everyone knows about the lobbyists and 'K' Streets and 'J' Street and their ilk (see: opay to play'), so I won't belabor that point, here.

    They also get into schemes like the one at hand, wherein a simple rancher is being forced off his land in order to benefit the family and friends of Harry Reid. Reid will get his 'take' after the deals go through, of course, including donations to his favorite 'non-profit' groups and 'charities' and lots of 'campaign contributions.' Plus, he'll have investments in companies directly or indirectly related to this forced removal of the Bundys.

    Remember, left, right or center, they all do this sort of thing. If you believe anything else, you are either naive or a damn fool, or both.

    The Rule of Law is meaningless under such circumstances. When the law is whatever they say it is, and when they exempt themselves from laws that you and I must live under, the law is absolutely meaningless. We have a lawless and illegitimate government. The left vs right and Republican vs Democrat paradigm is meaningless under the circumstances that now prevail.

    Note: When Common Dreams has a clue...
    https://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/04/14



    Plus, an eleven minute video on the issue that is worth your time. Promise.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFiosLqjoQQ

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  7. " It is a safe bet that Cliven Bundy is not an Obama or Reid contributor."


    It's also a safe bet that Bundy is one of those assholes that think poor children should be performing janitorial duties for their food. Because it's never to soon to learn that there's "No such thing as a free lunch"...unless you're one of Bundy's cows.

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  8. Mooser12:55 PM

    You are so right "RedNeckParadise" Just because you couldn't provide any examples, doesn't mean everything you say isn't true in an alternate universe.

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  9. Rugosa1:01 PM

    The land isn't Bundy's. It's Federal land that he has been grazing his cows on without paying the grazing fees. In other words, he's stealing.

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  10. Daniel Björkman1:06 PM

    You're seriously going to try this? Okay then. I suppose I can admire your stones, if nothing else.

    The Harry Reid part I'll leave to people who actually have some familiarity with the man, though I'll note that you started out with a statement ("Harry Reid is a bad, bad man!") that is likely to be considered highly debatable around here and presenting it as a given and a starting point for your further rant. I do anticipate see that working out very well for you, as far as winning hearts and minds go.

    Now, as far as right-wing politicians and left-wing politicians both being easily bribed and prone to dirty tricks go, hey, I don't doubt it. But I am not at all sure what that has to do with anything here. I don't see any dirty dealings. I see a cowboy-wannabe who thinks he's above the law at long last being called to justice for his irresponsibility, and instead of giving in doubling up and going from passive squatting to actual violence. Now, I am more aware than most that nothing makes you look so guilty as being accused, so I try to keep an open mind - but sometimes, there is no choice but to accept that the reason someone looks guilty is that he is guilty and has made zero efforts at hiding it.

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  11. MrRedNeckParadise1:09 PM

    I can't help but notice that the smartest people in the room lack reading comprehension.

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  12. Wind and solar energy survive only by virtue of federal subsidies

    Whereas fossil fuel energy survives purely on free market profitsoh wait shit

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  13. Hey, that's not fair. He also mooches water thanks to the government.

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  14. coozledad1:14 PM

    Out where the beef begins
    A man they call "Assrocket"
    put his tongue in Bundy's socket
    And came back a free man.

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  15. LookWhosInTheFreezer1:31 PM

    Funny, Hinderaker seems not-at-all curious to know if Bundy's tractors are Cadillacs, or just how many T-bone steaks he has in his freezer.

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  16. Some have said that he was a great patriot. Others called him a terrorist.


    Still others said that he was an okayish beer if you're not in the mood for anything fancy.

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  17. edroso1:34 PM

    So: Corruption exists, therefore we must support a scofflaw? And it'll be clearer if I watch an 11-minute propaganda video? Thanks loads.

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  18. edroso1:36 PM

    That was a very quick transition from "Hear me out" to "Sam Adams would hate you," buddy. Are you sure you're made for the outreach business?

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  19. montag21:38 PM

    Not to mention that solar costs are coming down rapidly because of production expansion and ongoing innovation, so the subsidies have had the desired effect, and wind power is now very close to being cost-equivalent to more traditional fossil fuel-based power production.

    More to the point, even if relatively small subsidies are required, any unbiased cost-benefit analysis would show net benefits as compared to, say, coal, which is a very dirty fuel no matter how it's cleaned, and which also gets subsidies.

    And, I need to make this point. We have one dedicated national laboratory for renewable energy, the NREL, in Colorado. Its budget has been successively hacked away to the point that it can no longer keep the bulk of its research library on-line, and it has had to largely restrict its activities to commercial support and integration of existing technology. In the middle of the last decade--perhaps at the apogee of our national determination to fight wars for oil--the NREL's annual budget was about $310 million a year (it's gone up a few percent since then). At the same time, just the war in Afghanistan was costing us that much every forty hours.

    So when this moron starts talking about subsidies, he's ignoring the biggest one of all by far--war for resources. No one, period, has ever implied that we invaded Iraq because they had a lot wind, or sunlight.

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  20. MrRedNeckParadise1:39 PM

    I've already provided a small bit of evidence in my post above. You've ignored that smidgen. Why would I waste more time doing your research for you, just so that you a can ignore it, as well?
    Good day, folks. Have a nice life.

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  21. tigrismus1:44 PM

    And there was lots of "we, the people" talk about who the national parks and war memorials belong to back when the Republicans shut down the government that I'm not hearing now.

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  22. Sorry. Pure innuendo (readily available) does not constitute even a smidgen.

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  23. coozledad1:47 PM

    Go in peace, Foghorn.

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  24. tigrismus1:51 PM

    Which part of "wherein a simple rancher is being forced off his land" did Rugosa misunderstand?

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  25. L Bob Rife1:56 PM

    I'll assume he takes the farm fuel tax exemption too.

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  26. Jay B.2:09 PM

    It's so readily available that it's an insult to even have to deign show it to you, why it's so readily available even a old kerning pro like Hindrocket must be in on it because otherwise he'd totally produce it. BECAUSE THAT'S HOW DEEP IT GOES, HAYSTACK.


    Ranchers are whiny jackasses for guys who think they are so fucking macho. Reminds me of gun nuts, Christian Dominionists and every other demographic of the GOP's base.

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  27. montag22:23 PM

    " Maybe they think they'd better be nice to the nuts because they're all they have left."

    I seriously doubt that they ever had anyone but the nuts. I mean, c'mon, when were Powerlineblog or Assrocket ever known for prudent, sensible, thoughtful commentary?

    The Bundy Fundy is just the latest in a long list of right-wing extremists that Hinderaker has come to embrace, because they're right-wing extremists, Federalist grudges optional.

    But, about this issue specifically, there's nothing new in it. Conservatives have hated public ownership of the commons forever. Assrocket can try to divert attention to tortoises, Harry Reid, etc., all he wishes, but the base fact remains--this is just more whining about the Gawd-given rights of conservatives to do as they damned well please and big gummint be damned. Shitty cattle management, indifference to water resources, stubborn resistance to paying paltry grazing fees? Pshaw. He's a "sovereign citizen" by Gawd. He's entitled.

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  28. The part where we were supposed to ignore the actual facts of the matter in favor of authentic frontier gibberish.

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  29. philadelphialawyer2:33 PM

    ------Right. To me, that's the bottom line. Harry Reid might be a bum. He might want the land to provide for the tortoises so that his nepo solar project can go ahead elsewhere. Plus, the rule of law is in jeopardy because Obamacare waivers, illegal immigration, etc, etc, etc.
    ------OK fine, I will concede all of that, and more, for the sake of argument, because it just doesn't matter. Bundy guy is using land that he admits isn't his and refuses to pay for it. The land clearly belongs to the BLM, but, even if it didn't, it doesn't belong to Bundy, and he knows it. There is a claim that he tries to pay the State of Nevada for the use of the land, but that is stupid, and proves nothing. He knows damn well that Nevada agrees that the BLM owns the land, and so cannot take his money. It would be like offering me money to pay for his beer. I never owned the beer you drink, Bundy, so, no, I will not accept your money for it. Take your beer money and give it to the guy who, 'ya know, owned the beer.
    -------So, what is BLM supposed to do? Just let Bundy not pay at all, because (he claims) he would rather pay someone else?
    -------The whole thing is completely absurd, and shows just how far out their some on the right will go. Here you have a guy without a leg to stand on, and they know it, and admit it, and yet, somehow, he is right anyway because Reid, nepotism, Obamacare, food stamps, illegal immigrants, Waco, Ruby Ridge, solar energy, turtles, his family's been renting the land since the old days, the EPA, the Endangered Species Act, and, oh yeah, freedom.

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  30. Chairman Pao2:44 PM

    (Downvoted for accidental self-upvote. D'oh!)

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  31. If anyone has 'historic rights' to the land north of Lost Wages, it is the Paiutes, right?

    http://www.lvpaiutetribe.
    ~

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  32. What should the Feds do this Bunker fuckwit now? It's very simple.

    Tear up the government-built roads leading in and out of his ranch.

    A Zen solution, and poetic justice.

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  33. TXkid2:56 PM

    Wasn't Welfare Queen of the Prairie one of Laura Ingalls Wilder's lesser known works?

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  34. Dr. Hunky Jimpjorps2:57 PM

    Oh, we don't put on airs around here. We're simple urban folk, just looking out for our next latte and slaving away over hot IDEs to put arugula on the table.

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  35. Gromet2:58 PM

    It's pretty to think the federal bureaucracies that dispense all that money will coordinate to refuse one more cent of it to Bundy. I'd like to hear how he phrases his complaint about not getting 40 kinds of relief from the tyrants in Washington. They might also shut down any water or electricity that moves through federally subsidized pipes and wires, or at least charge him prices that reflect market value out there in nowhere. Heck, I'm even willing to let Bundy not pay taxes for a year -- nothing in, nothing out, that's fair -- because I'm pretty sure that would be his last year as a rancher.


    I think a lot of Republicanism would wither if the government were a little less efficient and generous, because then these lunatics might confront how dependent they are on a pretty damn complex civilization, whatever their rugged-loner mythology says to the contrary.

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  36. Dr. Hunky Jimpjorps3:00 PM

    Yes, you're on the right track with your sentiment, but what does that have to do with the case of a rancher who has refused to pay grazing fees for over two decades because he doesn't like the idea of federalism?

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  37. Jay Schiavone3:08 PM

    "frontier gibberish"
    "Now, who can argue with that?"
    --Howard Johnson

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  38. XeckyGilchrist3:21 PM

    Did better than most of the drive-bys. I give him a 0.7 out of 100.

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  39. LittlePig3:42 PM

    than the continuation of their historic rights of mooching off the Federal government.

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  40. LittlePig3:45 PM

    Rarrit!

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  41. 'Ranchers, on the other hand, ask nothing from the federal government other than the continuation of their historic rights.'


    file photo, associated press, "iron eyes" cliven.

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  42. Bethany Spencer3:51 PM

    Seriously. I mean, do these people not pay attention to what they're writing?

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  43. nanute3:53 PM

    That's assuming he files taxes. Not likely since he doesn't recognize the federal government.

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  44. Chocolate Covered Cotton3:54 PM

    Bundy stopped paying grazing fees (already a small fraction of market rates) back in 1993. For this, and for illegal and destructive dam building, he was ordered to remove his herd in 1996. If this is all about enriching the Reids in 2014, I say we should reward their farsightedness.

    As for the larger point that politics in Nevada tends to be incestuous or even corrupt and that Nevada politicians are often self-serving, this isn't exactly news. Mark Twain commented on it. You want to change that, good luck to you. But if you decide it can't change, that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to just refuse to accept its legitimacy.

    The alleged corruption is irrelevant to the question of whether Bundy owes a million in fines due to pretending himself to be above the law. He ain't.

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  45. Charlie Pluckhahn3:57 PM

    Powerline's account is excellent and accurate except for the very end where they attempt to pin it on Obama. That's ridiculous, just as all the hatred here is ridiculous. You might try judging this one on the merits rather than deciding that you hate the guy because he's not a condescending liberal jackoff.

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  46. you have no idea what you're talking about, and yet here you are, talking about it. none of powerline's "accurate" account is at all true - in fact, it's easily shot down with something called "google" - and the rest is hyperbole and race-baiting.

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  47. mgmonklewis4:05 PM

    Apparently not, and neither do his readers. The approving comments posted to his article from like-minded "thinkers" indicate that Reason and Cognition have fled the building and are currently hiding out.

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  48. Charlie Pluckhahn4:05 PM

    Actually, I do know what I'm talking about. Hinderaker got it right as far as he went, but he neglected the water part, which is even bigger. But all you see is "rancher," "wingnut," and Mormon, so you have no interest in the issues this presents.

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  49. mgmonklewis4:06 PM

    He knows his audience?

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  50. Charlie Pluckhahn4:08 PM

    Let's see what you say when the federal government changes administrations, clears its throat and says to Colorado and Washington: "Ahem, but marijuana is a Schedule 1 drug, and you better shut down your fucking pot shops right now or we're going to shoot first and sort it out later."

    Scofflaws indeed.

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  51. you're right, i have absolutely no interest in the issues. i hate people irrationally, but you knew that, since i don't vote the same way you do.

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  52. Charlie Pluckhahn4:11 PM

    Two things going on here.

    The first is that Las Vegas wants the water in that area, and has been in cahoots for 20 years with BLM to clear out the ranchers so they can drain the aquifer under the Great Basin.

    The second, and more recent, is that Reid's kid represents a Chinese-owned solar project near Laughlin, Nevada. Yes, it's far away, but the plan is to relocate that area's endangered desert turtles to where Bundy's ranch is.

    The water is a bigger issue than Reid's corruption, but Reid's corruption is part of the mix.

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  53. Jimcima4:11 PM

    I sense there is a difference here but for some reason I can't quite put my pale finger on it...

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  54. Charlie Pluckhahn4:12 PM

    What, you didn't vote for Obama? Who knew?

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  55. John Griffone4:14 PM

    "Wind and solar energy survive only by virtue of federal subsidies"

    Yes, because the Rural Electrification Act and the Tennessee Valley Authority were masterworks of private sector action in the face of government indifference. See also the national highway system, the national telephone system, et al. It's amazing how all this infrastructure just grows wild from the ground to be put to use by the great Naturalists of Capitalism.

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  56. edroso4:14 PM

    Charlie, what do you think should happen? Should Bundy's debts be forgiven?

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  57. BORED NOW

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  58. Matt Jones4:14 PM

    Wingnut sez: "it is obvious that some activities are favored by the Obama administration’s BLM, and others are disfavored"


    For instance, properly-permitted construction is favored, and ILLEGAL FUCKING GRAZING is not. What's the world coming to, when a man can't even trespass without a bunch of cops up in his grill?

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  59. KatWillow4:16 PM

    Not just grazing, but over-grazing, and seriously mis-managing.

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  60. coozledad4:17 PM

    No fuck they won't because those taxes will be paid. And those paid taxes make everybody look good.


    Fuck Republicans who don't know fuck about money, governance, or anything else but outright theft.

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  61. Charlie Pluckhahn4:22 PM

    @dex, you told me to use Google. Well, you lazy-ass POS, use Google and check my political contributions.

    @edroso, the big crime has already succeeded. Las Vegas and the feds have cleared out all the ranchers from a 600-square mile area. Bundy's the last one, and he won't live forever. He's going to lose, and everyone (probably him too, heart-of-hearts) knows it.

    The only issue now, really, is tactics. The obvious way to proceed is for the feds to stick a lien on his deeded land and wait until he kicks off. But this isn't about $1.1 million that the feds say they're owed.

    I have to say it's darkly comedic to see all these law 'n order liberals on this one. The federal government moved an army in there, complete with snipers, helicopters, a no-fly zone, and a cordoned off section of the desert as a "first amendment area."

    But hey, the ornery old rancher is in the wrong political tribe, and that's all anyone here gives a shit about. Me, I'm old fashioned about freedom being indivisible even for people I'm not so high on, and about how the government acts in general.

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  62. coozledad4:22 PM

    The guys lining up for a faceful of rancher ass have never seen what cattle do to riverbanks and creekbeds, or ignore it.


    I'd love it if some of them strayed out onto the white trash golf courses in Vegas. You'd be hearing a whole nother shitstink.

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  63. LittlePig4:25 PM

    Bundy's the last one, and he won't live forever. He's going to lose, and everyone (probably him too, heart-of-hearts) knows it.

    Goddamit, if you people were around 100 years ago the Buggy Whip Makers subsidy would be running about 1.3 billion a year by now.

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  64. coozledad4:26 PM

    Yes, it's far away, but the plan is to relocate the goalposts to where Assrocket's argument began to sink in the sand.

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  65. dstatton4:29 PM

    Bundy said it was "public" land, not "government" land.

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  66. Charlie Pluckhahn4:31 PM

    I'm afraid the deal is done anyway. One way or the other, Bundy's done for. Of course, you'd love to see his brains splattered all over the desert. Not so much with me.

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  67. PulletSurprise4:31 PM

    Well, what do you know...

    http://www.fedspending.org/faads/faads.php?&recip_id=110774&sortby=u&datype=T&reptype=r&database=faads&detail=2

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  68. Charlie Pluckhahn4:34 PM

    Well yes, there is that.

    The West wasn't won, it was stolen. First by the explorers and fur traders. Then by the cavalry and homesteaders. Then by the cattle barons. Then by the railroads and mining companies. Now by thirsty cities.

    Forget about Bundy's vocabulary. This is just the West being stolen again. History repeats itself.

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  69. Charlie Pluckhahn4:35 PM

    This is actually mainly about a water grab by the city of Las Vegas begun 20 years ago. Reid's corrupt solar deal IS a corrupt solar deal, but the water is the main event.

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  70. witlesschum4:37 PM

    You'd do it for Randolph Scott!

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  71. wait a second - THE charlie pluckham?! FORGIVE ME CHARLES

    little hint from a lazy ass piece of shit, chuck: if you want to make a serious argument, don't use fools and shills like hinderaker to help frame it. you only waste everyone's time here and you make yourself look foolish as well.

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  72. witlesschum4:42 PM

    Indeed. If there was some of sort of extenuating circumstances in the case that THEY aren't tell us, then wandering in off the street and defending the guy using the Harry Reid variant of the Chewbacca defense is the exact worse thing you could do.

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  73. Dr. Hunky Jimpjorps4:45 PM

    Why did they wait until now, then? If it's for Las Vegas, why is only BLS involved and not Clark County or the state itself? The pieces are all there but you're not putting them together.

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  74. "You fools are too blind to see what's going on right in front of you!" Heard that one once or twice. Like most of the people who speak in eerie whispers, you don't seem compelled to prove any of the things you're saying. Let me guess: We're all too close-minded, you're not going to waste your time. That about right?

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  75. Charlie Pluckhahn4:51 PM

    Indifference to water resources, you say. I laugh. You don't know jack shit about what's happening there. Bundy and his old testament lingo doesn't help matters much either, but anyone with some diligence can find out the truth.

    This all started 20 years ago when Las Vegas decided they'd run a pipeline to the aquifer that sits under the Great Basin. In cahoots with the BLM, they used the "endangered" desert turtle as a pretext to drive out about 50 or so ranchers who had grazed on about 375,000 acres of federal land, paying federal grazing fees.

    Bundy's the last holdout. Once he's gone -- and he WILL be gone, one way or another -- the pipeline will be built. The aquifer will be drained, just like the cities from Nebraska to Texas are draining the Ogallala aquifer under the Great Plains, something that's going to haunt everyone in about 50 years.

    Kids, go visit the Great Basin and have a long look, because that area is going to be done for, just like Bundy. Do a search on the Aral Sea sometime, because that's the future of the Great Basin. And you'll have helped.

    This whole thing was probably the last chance to get any attention focused on the environmental crime brewing in Nevada, and you people blew it because you don't like wingnut ranchers.

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  76. AlanInSF4:52 PM

    "Ranchers, on the other hand, ask nothing from the federal government other than the continuation of their historic rights." That would be their historic right, which they never had, to graze their cattle on land they didn't own or pay to maintain.

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  77. Once he's gone -- and he WILL be gone, one way or another


    Nothing says "take me seriously" like suggesting that the government is going to murder someone over a land deal.

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  78. Charlie Pluckhahn4:53 PM

    @dex, you are not one iota different or smarter than Sarah Palin in her dumbest day. Christ, you can't even spell my name when it's staring you in the face on the screen. Put the joint down and get in the game.

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  79. AlanInSF4:54 PM

    Actually, whatever the politics of the water grab, this is purely about a wealthy rancher not paying the fees he's legally required to pay for grazing his cattle.

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  80. so dum ewe winn

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  81. smut clyde4:55 PM

    the continuation of their historic rights
    The question, it is begged.

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  82. AlanInSF4:56 PM

    Heck of a "clearing out" tactic, requiring Bundy to pay the same fees that all other ranchers pay.

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  83. edroso4:57 PM

    To condense your argument: It doesn't matter what the guy owes or doesn't owe, there's bigger corruption going on and Charlie hates liberals.



    I can sympathize with most of that. But how much corruption has to be going on to excuse holding off a collection agency for 20 years, then gathering a posse when things get crucial? Because there are a lot of folks out there who'd love that kind of cover, and in this country there's plenty of it.

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  84. Charlie Pluckhahn4:58 PM

    They haven't been waiting at all. Clark County and the BLM have been working hand-in-glove for the last 20 years to clear everyone out of there so they can drain the aquifer under the Great Basin.

    Bundy's been in court for years. I give Hinderaker credit for being willing to dismiss the legal merits of the guy's complaint. He really doesn't stand a chance, and everyone knows it.

    I really don't think the feds have any reason to unveil the iron fist like they did. But the even larger issue is the environmental crime that's unfolding in that area. Bundy, by all accounts, has been a better land steward than anyone. And the BLM? They've been part and parcel of a scheme that's going to turn the Great Basin into a dust bowl.

    Not that anyone here gives a rat's ass about the environment of the West.

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  85. Charlie Pluckhahn4:59 PM

    Nice to see law and order liberals who don't give a flying fuck about the environment.

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  86. merl14:59 PM

    Blog of the year in 1964? Were you trying to see if we were paying attention or was that a joke that went over my head?

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  87. smut clyde5:00 PM

    Bundy, by all accounts, has been a better land steward than anyone
    Can you link to these?

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  88. Charlie Pluckhahn5:01 PM

    What proof would you like? Be specific, because I can probably provide the links. I was following the water issues there before I ever heard of Cliven Bundy.

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  89. Charlie Pluckhahn5:03 PM

    The clearing out had nothing to do with grazing fees. The BLM cut grazing allotments to levels too low for ranchers to stay in business. One by one, they sold their water rights to Las Vegas. Bundy's the last guy who didn't do that. Everyone else is gone.

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  90. AlanInSF5:04 PM

    PS: I'm not denying the water grab, which has been in progress for the past 30 years, long before Harry Reid. Bundy, however, offered to pay his fees to the state or county; he just refuses to recognize the authority of the federal government. Last holdout, indeed.

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  91. FMguru5:07 PM

    Look into your heart, merl1.

    What does it tell you?

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  92. BigHank535:08 PM

    Closely followed by "Don't look at me." whenever the topic of actually paying for national parks and monuments comes up.

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  93. BigHank535:11 PM

    When the horses drawing your carriage are named Racism and Oligarchy, there's not much point in asking yourself where the journey ends.

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  94. Stop to take that in for a moment: Hinderaker says the militiamen's
    argument is insupportable, but now Hinderaker is going to tell you why
    the argument nonetheless remains relevant.


    If the truth doesn't support you thesis, go with the lie. That's a conservative tenet.

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  95. Charlie Pluckhahn5:13 PM

    @edroso, "Charlie hates liberals?" Do a google search on my political contributions. Come on, I dare you. Then come back here and tell everyone who I hate.

    Bundy's grazing fees are not the issue. That's a sideshow, and so even is Reid's corrupt solar deal. This really and truly is in fact about the water. It is straight out of the old West. It's a water war. Always has been.

    And this particular water war is going to be won by the deepest pockets, which is always the case. Bundy will be gone. Vegas will drain the aquifer. The Great Basin will be destroyed in Nevada and Utah, and at some point all of the same people pissing on Cliven Bundy will be whining and asking, "How did this happen?"

    But you won't do that until you hear it from Rachel Maddow or NPR or the NY Times. If you'd bother to get off your ass and do the research, you'd see that Bundy's travails are part of a much, much larger story that involves a gigantic environmental crime in the making.

    Bundy? He's a classic ornery wingnut. And the "patriots" on his ranch are laughable. And he doesn't help matters, to put it mildly, by talking about state sovereignty, blah blah blah. But who knows what got him to this point? Vegas and the BLM have been squeezing those people out of there for 20 years, as part of a water scheme that's going to really and truly wreck a region.

    This was the last chance to get anyone to pay attention, but like every American idiot these days, you are all distracted by style and political tribe.

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  96. Wind and solar energy survive only by virtue of federal subsidies

    So does cattle ranching in a friggin' desert.

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  97. Charlie Pluckhahn5:17 PM

    Like every other American idiot, you and the others are incredibly easy to distract. You see "wingnut," and that's enough. It's no different than the Republicans whipping up their idiots with gay marriage and abortion while they steal everything but the floorboards.

    And YOU then wonder how the idiots of Kansas vote against their interests? Look in the fucking mirror. This situation is masking a gigantic environmental ruination in the making. Truly, right on the brink. And what are you talking about? You don't like the old bastard because he's a wingnut.

    Good God, you people are easy. No wonder the politicians are as cynical as they are.

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  98. smut clyde5:18 PM

    Skimming through this thread, I see numerous repetitions of claim about Reid and the BLM conspiring to drive ranchers off Federal land by insisting they pay their fees, in order to drain an aquifer -- a remake-of-Chinatown situation -- but I must have missed the actual evidence.

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  99. Charlie Pluckhahn5:18 PM

    Last weekend, the BLM had sniper teams in the hills there. They freely confirmed it when asked by reporters.

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  100. satch5:19 PM

    Well, it would have been nice if Bundy had actually MADE the argument that you're making, but he didn't. This indicates to me that neither you nor Bundy know what you're talking about. Bundy actually is a wingnut rancher, of course. You, on the other hand are asking us to believe a contention that no one on either side has even come close to bringing up before. Some links might be a good start if you'd like us to believe you.

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  101. Charlie Pluckhahn5:19 PM

    Do you really want the evidence?

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